All Over Albany

Yes, if there is something my dear web newbie mother is going to read right away, it's a post titled "SEO Best Practices...". SE-what? The meta dilemma that went on in this post is almost palpable: "hmmm, should I put the usual SEO buzzwords in my title for better SEO, or should I make it actually understandable to my target audience? SEO it is!". But good advices. The dead serious comment about microformat was fun too. I really need to call my favorite restaurants more often and complain about the lack of microformat support, this has to stop right here, right now :)

... said -S(not EO) on Jun 13, 2011 at 6:24 PM | link

As a fatkidintraining, nothing makes me madder that trying to figure out where to go for dinner and there not being a menu online. How am I supposed to start planning my dinner while I'm waiting for my leftovers to reheat in the microwave during my lunchhour?

I wish I was kidding.

... said Casey on Jun 13, 2011 at 9:08 PM | link

For a good laugh, go read "Never Said About Restaurant Websites." It's a scream....and so true.

http://neversaidaboutrestaurantwebsites.tumblr.com/

... said jess on Jun 14, 2011 at 12:27 AM | link

One more challenge: people often think that once they have a website then they are done! But with technology moving so quickly, websites have a shelf life shorter than Justin Bieber's latest haircut.

To maintain a current look you should budget for seasonal, small tweaks. Just like you'd ask your customers if they've enjoyed their meal, ask them if they found what they needed on your website.

And of course, only build as big as you can maintain. Nothing looks worse than seeing seasonal menu offerings for winter in June. Or a blog that was updated two years ago. It makes me wonder what else you aren't paying attention to in your kitchen.

A website is a process, not a destination.

... said abby on Jun 14, 2011 at 7:20 AM | link

Apologies to the first commenter who apparently thinks I spammed the title of that post. But seeing that the target audience for my SEO consulting company are people looking for SEO advice and tips, I think "SEO best practices for restaurants" is something they not only understand, but are looking for. Which is the point of that wonky SEO thing anyway.

... said Lisa Barone on Jun 14, 2011 at 8:49 AM | link

Heh. I guess when someone has nothing constructive to say...

But restaurant websites are always the worst violators of acceptable web practices, usually because the owner's nephew "knows computers" and has a copy of Front Page from 2003.

... said Angelos on Jun 14, 2011 at 9:18 AM | link

Totally agree with S. on this. I work in a restaurant and can honestly say that the people there are too busy actually *working* to worry about SEO best practices.

SEO is one of those things that exists only to ensure it's own existence. Stick to using Twitter to talk about how great Twitter is and leave the food establishments alone.

... said Bill on Jun 14, 2011 at 12:39 PM | link

Now THAT'S high comedy.

... said Angelos on Jun 14, 2011 at 3:29 PM | link

One thing everyone should understand about SEO: It's marketing. I doubt any of us would argue that with the increasing importance of the internet and local search practices on Google that these things don't matter to restaurants. Local search is imperative and social sites like Yelp do matter. This is all marketing.

I love that All Over Albany included the link to Liz's interview on Wendalicious because seeing as Brayton Graphics is a web development company and Outspoken Media is an SEO/Internet Marketing company our jobs go hand in hand.

I've actually had conversations with web developers and we laugh at how SEO and Web Development are like brothers, yet they seem to be on different planets. You can make the best website in the world, but if nobody can find it or use it properly, then it's not serving you well in terms of marketing.

I commend Lisa and Liz for speaking out about issues with restaurant websites. I only hope restaurant owners will thank them because following their advice will improve your business!

Sorry Sebastian that you didn't like the title.

... said Sabre Sarnataro on Jun 14, 2011 at 4:49 PM | link

@Angelos: no, what's high comedy is seeing how out-of-touch you SEO people are. I mean, look at this thread :) As soon as I made that joke about the linkbaiting Lisa whined about it on Twitter to her 18,000 followers with a link back to rally for support. And support she received. She swears she "doesn't care" but hasn't been able to get over it for the past 4 hours and now I feel like a sad panda inside. Like many over-twitters, she doesn't really know why she tweets actually, my guess is that there is a fuse that blows when you past 10K followers; everything that crosses your mind must be interesting from that point on and needs to be said online every 10 minutes. I'll never reach 10K so I prefer talking to my pet squirrel, your mileage may vary (I should totally tweet that). And here you are to the rescue, Angelos.

Do you guys really think we are too dumb to click on your names and read your Twitter? I mean, really? If you are working the "stream of consciousness" angle can you please make it creative in the expletives? Case in point, Lisa, if you immediately make that completely unexpected joke that my comment can be explained because I'm French, then make it again, guess what, I actually can *see* that using "eyes technology". Crazy! Others can too. That's cool though, because I love people who are observant and it was hysterical(?).

A tad less funny is when Bill comments here that he actually has stuff to do besides "tweeting the moment the bread comes out of the oven" as you suggested in your post (BTW, turns out Albany's yummy-delicious Townsend Bakery failed, but not because of lack of tweets, #realitycheck). Do you think Bill doesn't see you on Twitter, calling him an ignorant, pretty much a loser without ambition, and a moron. Quick, to the delete button! But first, to the BatMobile!

That's just a small sample from what happened this afternoon, Angelos, it's hard to keep up, and who should? This "high comedy" (sorry Sabre, I meant "marketing") is on every day and that might be why *some* SEO people are the bottom of so so many jokes. That, complete lack of awareness, and this sense of self-indulgence that only comes from people who can fix an HTML meta tag and make you pay for it. I know about self-indulgence, I'm French, as Lisa pointed out, tadaaa.

BTW, I hope I used enough links. I'm not sure.
When is the next #smbtv, I miss it!
#SEO

... said -S on Jun 14, 2011 at 5:45 PM | link

Not actually "SEO people" myself, but am currently building 3 sites in my free-lance time for people who intend to make money with them. Just a hunch, but I'll be doing a lot more than "fixing meta-tags." Call me crazy.

If you don't think there are people who differentiate themselves with their skills, you deserve what you get when you go cheap.

BTW, I hear a new restaurant opened up in downtown Troy. Being Greek, I sure hope they serve keftedes, one of my favorite tapas-style foods that I can never make right. My grandmother and my aunt have sent me recipes, I've tried a dozen times, I just can't get close to the way they taste back home. I miss them. Let me check!

http://thegreekhouse.net/

Ooooooops.

I should call them and tell them that I could have a bangin' SEO-friendly Wordpress site up for them in 3 hours, with full menu, contact information, a good-looking "About" page, a Google-maps widget, everything they'd need. I'd even barter for it, say $500 worth of take-out coupons. They want more hard-core stuff, people to actually get them the right kind of linkage, then they call in the SEO pros after that.

Also, it WAS damned funny to be lectured to by someone who "really works" at a restaurant. Yeah, I used to "really work" in food prep, pizza delivery, at a couple copy-shops, etc. But then I bought a business. And, you know, took on a crapload of risks when I was 25, like having a payroll to meet and SBA loans to repay... I should have stayed "really working" for minimum wage at Kinko's. Yeah, that's the ticket.

... said Angelos on Jun 15, 2011 at 11:08 AM | link

Sebastian, I am unsure about why you're bitter about this particular topic, but suffice to say that your comments are in fact rants, and yet you're berating Lisa for ranting in return. I just don't think it's very productive.

I was simply trying to point out that SEO *is* marketing, and it's far more complex than just HTML meta tags. All local businesses, especially restaurants should be thinking about these things. Every business should include a marketing campaign and things like SEO and Web Development are just pieces of this. To Angelo's point, I'm sure Bill who works in the restaurant may not be concerned with these aspects, but I guarantee you that the owner will, especially when it effects the bottom line.

I know as someone with a computer science background, you're going to jump to think about SEO from a technical standpoint, but that's not what it's all about. I live with a User-Interface Architect who programs every day, I'm used to this mind-set. But ask him to talk about marketing, and oh boy. They are two different worlds.

Like I said about my conversations with Web Dev people, we are brothers but exist separately. Since you're not even close to a marketing professional, I am not sure why you feel the need to authoritatively berate those who work in the industry who are just trying to help people by writing informative articles.

... said Sabre Sarnataro on Jun 15, 2011 at 2:13 PM | link

@Angelos. Great story. Sorry, I spent the better part of yesterday at Albany Med after my head exploded. The Greek House has no web site? That was a shock! What am I going to do? The nice doctor at the psychiatric ward did mention I could get my lazy bum directly to the restaurant and check it out. Let them surprise me, go with the flow, and talk to my friends about it, you know, word-of-mouth. That's just non-sense, only Daniel B has the guts to organize a Hot Dog Tour without official websites, he is a magician. In this highly competitive and overcrowded market that is Greek food in Troy, how am I going to check the thousands and thousands of joints in my lifetime? You have a point though, if they had a web site, I'm confident they would mention to you that their keftedes are *terrible*. Sorry, I meant they would have an authoritative article about keftedes with the right kind of linkage to their own "Best Practices for Terrible Keftedes" post. Another intern at AMC suggested I use Google Maps, Yelp, the Yellow Pages, or even (brace yourself), the phone! I said "Dude, you don't understand, they don't have a web site! And that strait-jacket is tight!". He nodded and recommended I started stocking food at home because more restaurants were going to open... without a website. And some of them for months at a time!

So yes, Angelos, you should call them for business. I'm honest here, you should, that would have been a great point if they had accepted, a success story on topic with the original post. It's not the online presence I'm poking fun at, it's the latest fads the "SEO pros" want to sell us ("oh look, shiny new social network!") and the superior SEO stance you and Lisa demonstrated by berating Bill for "just working" at a restaurant and not "getting it". The typical "you can't understand (PS: are you French?)" point Sabre is trying to make. Angelos, may I suggest you *not* share that with your executive chef or waitress next time you eat out?

Check Lisa's article for a second: 29 comments, *none* from the food industry. Zilch. Mostly all, already in-the-know, condenscending SEO crowd. Superior targeting indeed. The service industry not reading SEO blogs? Ooops, how come? Could it be because that original post was the usual SEO schtick "hey, SEO friends and bloggers alike, look at how I make fun of [insert industry name] who can't get their websites right, please link to my post and join me to make fun of even more ignorant people, har har har, but don't you even think of coming down on SEO sacred practices, right? You guys are on the joke with me, right? Oh wait, is that a fly on my window?! Pretty! I've to tweet that!". That's all fun and games, guys, seriously, it is, I read it, you read it, but pretending it's helpful "for real" when you are being called out is just disingenuous. This post to "restaurant owner in 2011" about "awful" restaurant websites was a comedic piece, never an "informative" dialogue with the food industry, unless you start your dialogues with a punch in the face. In that case, yes.

What could have been "helpful for real" (but not funny?) is if you or Lisa had called a few of these places to understand *why* they are (and remains) in that situation and share that with her readers. Hopefully she did for her own business. Not holding my breath on the result by the way she couldn't wrap her head around the fact that Bill wasn't interested in her service. "How?! You neeeeeeeed me! (Moron)." (actual dramatization). My 0.02 euros? It's not necessarily because people don't understand SEO, or that they can't do the better part of it, but because there are a few out there who have no interest or time in playing a game that is hyped, and sometimes rigged, by needy actors hiding behind the same purposely buzzword-heavy routines (links courtesy of the original post's commenters). Nah, scratch that, I'm making that up, there is no way these people exist, I'm just bitter because... damn' I can't remember!

I've helped somebody once setting up more "social presence" for a local restaurant, someone very professional at work but who *really* had better things to do in this strenuous industry. Crazy, I know, they didn't have a dedicated communication team printing and framing SEO blogs all day, can you imagine? Their website was already a bit clunky, the photos are kinda old, their Facebook presence is very light and they couldn't be bothered with Twitter. However, their business, reviews and word on the street are great because their time (and likely money) was spent switching it up with a new exec and bringing new, fantastic *food* instead. The rest followed. OK, you got me, I admit that if they had used a SEO company the owner would be rolling on a golden skateboard on Central Av and each and everyone in the wait staff would own a separate restaurant on Jupiter by now.

Angelos, if the Greek House doesn't accept your offer (I hope they do), maybe because they are busy investing the little time and money they have in actually producing good Greek food your grandmother would approve of rather than staring at Google Analytics and counting how many people Like them on Facebook, you can still make fun of them with the SEO pros on Twitter. That's gotta be worth more than $500, right?

... said -S on Jun 16, 2011 at 8:12 PM | link

{Sigh}

Bitterness is so unbecoming.

... said Angelos on Jun 16, 2011 at 9:59 PM | link

Magician? No.
Old line media strategist? Yes.

I've literally spent hundreds of millions of dollars on national television ads for my clients, and built the communication strategies for those campaigns.

Marketing is marketing. Tools are tools. And not everything is right for everybody.

But just for fun I checked to see where the Tour de Hot Dog came up in the organic Google listings and I did pretty darn well. On Bing one has to search for Albany Tour de Hot Dog for me to be in the pole position.

Bippity boppity boo.

... said Daniel B. on Jun 16, 2011 at 10:00 PM | link

@Daniel: websiteS :) What I meant is that out of the 5 local, small businesses you guys visited in 2010 during the tour, 3 still don't seem to have a website in 2011. That's on topic. They are still in activity and produce good if not great food. Woah. And I just picked one of your tour randomly. How did you guys choose the candidates without their website back then? Is it humanly possible? Angelos, why not call these rebels for some investigative blogging, see what's wrong with them? You can split your experience in 140 characters bites, I'll still read it. #superdupperbitter

... said -S on Jun 16, 2011 at 10:58 PM | link

I'd love to see what a Gus's Hot Dogs website would look like. I mean the business itself looks like it's about to be condemned, and that's a huge part of their brand and their appeal.

What's the online analogue to that?

Oh wait, I totally know:
http://bit.ly/AnotherPoorlyDesignedLocalSite

... said Daniel B. on Jun 17, 2011 at 12:16 AM | link

Pardon me whilst I give Sebastian a standing ovation. :) (What can I say, I'm a sucker for a good rant or three.)

However, I believe the original point of the post was "if you're going to have a website for your restaurant, the least you can do is put forth the effort and do it right (or hire someone who knows how)." If so, I have little choice but to agree. It's quite annoying to track down a restaurant's website and have it be difficult to use or to not even see basic info like hours or a menu.

... said Tim in Waterford on Jun 17, 2011 at 2:02 AM | link

Lisa, on responding to negative comments:
"Yes, the negative comment will stay there in all its glory, but trying to engage said miserable person will only incite a war and will likely become far more damaging. If the comment isn’t outrageous or slanderous on its own, there’s no need to get it more attention."
http://outspokenmedia.com/reputation-management/respond-negative-reviews/

something smells fishy, teds fish fry, seafood, delicious, yummy, albany, troy, cajun, clams, girls, xxx, http://www.tedsfishfry.net/

@-S, if you want to wage war on the spammy industry that lacks most ethics and fights hard to keep their not-so-difficult "craft" relevant, you're going to need a lot more followers on twitter

... said lol on Jun 17, 2011 at 2:02 AM | link

Fact: the greek house does have keftedes (aka little meat missiles of joy). They are wonderful. I recommend everyone go eat some.

... said Casey on Jun 17, 2011 at 9:34 AM | link

Time, what S is really getting at is that the original post in question is not about "if you're going to have a website for your restaurant, the least you can do is put forth the effort and do it right (or hire someone who knows how)" at all, but entirely about driving traffic to an SEO expert site from other SEO experts. As he pointed out way wayyy up at the top, the title tells you everything you need to know, it's basically unsearchable for someone who actually wants to build a restaurant website but is perfectly set up for someone looking for SEO tips. The only tag is SEO. In fact I'd speculate that restaurants were singled out (because you can write the same about many industries) because it's popular right now to bash their websites, see the tumblr jess linked to which has been making the rounds. You too can increase your search referrals and lower your bounce rate by making a generic post on a currently popular topic.

Angelos pulls back the curtain for a second when he admits that he thinks people in food service don't do real work. Great amount of respect for his many local restaurant clients, yes I usually help people by denigrating their profession also.

No, the post was actually all about Lisa. At least S is honest on that front and says so in his domain name.

... said B on Jun 17, 2011 at 10:17 AM | link

If your best examples, Daniel, are a local institution that predates all but the largest computers, and a beer bar that can barely stay afloat (maybe BECAUSE of their unearned arrogance?), then you too have made... not much of an argument.

But hey, to any business owner in 2011: go ahead and ignore your online presence. Sebastian says it's OK.

... said Angelos on Jun 17, 2011 at 10:25 AM | link

This has all been rather... engaging. But it's run its course. And then some. So we're closing off the thread.

... said Greg on Jun 17, 2011 at 10:52 AM | link